Friday, September 29, 2017

DPP and Efficiency are not the same thing

AxeMurderer: I don't believe in personal loot pool, but isn't this proof that personal loot pool exists

Charlie|MindArk: No, there still is no personal loot pool.
Actually, this doesn't read like "most efficient hunters = highest returns" at all.

I know plenty of people with low dpp setups turning over high ped, whom would fall into this >50k bracket. If (as you assume) this would be pure high efficiency, they would artificially skew the return % lower.

What the statement actually reads (to me) is that, MA are identifying what cycle amounts are appropriate in identifying loot. I.e. >50k turnover, they expect >98, >10k >97, and all >96.

They've been pretty clear that dpp (or eff, whatever you wanna go with) only affects loot composition (by 7% min/max) and now they've highlighted that crit bonuses only boost this composition factor.

Charlie|MindArk: No, DPP and Efficiency are not the same thing. DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP. Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.

First off, thanks for the update!

Just a slight point about that list; there are presumably a huge number of players who don't fit any category there, namely those with a daily turnover of less than 600 peds or so a day since the test began, but have been around a lot longer than just this year!

I wonder what those returns are ???

It's also nice to see discussion on critical hits, for example, being commented on by MA to clear up some misunderstandings . Please continue to show you have been reading our discussions MA, ty!!!

Thank you so much for the update PLEASE keep them regular - we have a community manager after all.... right?

I at first was liking the changes, but quickly my loot fell off like usual. The hope was in less armor/fap decay.

Problems remain with loot items having zero mu and huge swings of volitity exist.

And as posted above, what about the large group of people that go through say 300-1000 peds? or even 5k peds? Your figures start off at 10k, that's pretty high. I still have never maintained 97% or 90% for that matter for more than a couple of days. What's my return after a week to 1 month? 0-10%. Deposit 100 bucks, have 1-10 dollars at end of month. I would LOVE to see myself have 80 even, but I don't so I still keep my distance from this game.

I remain hopeful for the future and involved from a distance.

Charlie|MindArk: The amount of turnover isn't very relevant to the average return or volatility in return for any individual player. To reach a stable average return it's really the amount of loot instances or creatures killed that matters. As an example, if a player kills 2 Sand Kings spending about 5000 PED to do so the expected loot returned on those 2 kills can vary greatly. If instead killing 200,000 Punies also about 5000 PED the expected loot return is going to be very close to the expected average of 96%+ seen in the 2017 group. A more realistic example of this is perhaps spending 300 PED hunting Proterons vs spending 300 PED hunting small Argonauts where the Argonaut hunt will usually yield similar results and the Proteron hunt results can be all over the place since the loot events are so few.

The reason turnover is chosen as the metric to present these statistics is because number of kills doesn't really say much about which level of players are in which category since anyone can kill a large number of mobs if they are small enough.


still no definition of what the hell turnover means... Is that the amount of ped they deposited, the number of ped they spent in decay, the amount of ped spent in ammo, or the amount of tt value they turned in when they 'turned it over' to the tt?

Charlie|MindArk: Turnover or PED "Cycled" is all PED decayed/destroyed/spent on killing a creature, this means decay for weapons, armor, ammo, healing, attachments etc. It has nothing to do with deposits, trade terminals or repair terminals etc.

Ive done more than 10k turnover but nowhere near those numbers =) how do we know that they are for real ?

Charlie|MindArk: These numbers are averages, most players in each category are going to be either above or below said number.

New players do probably not cycle 10000-50000 ped in 2,5 weeks so their volatility is probably even more obvious than for the mid level small time/softcore players (who most likelly have a larger turnover). So is this 96,94% for new players the average for ONE particular newby or is it an average of the entire newby player base?

They just say

Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.

But this doesnt mean every newby who shot 1000 punies got 96,94% in return.

Charlie|MindArk: As mentioned in a previous answer, the most important part for stable returns is the amount of kills or loot events not the amount of turnover. Most new players have very low turnover but hunt mobs like punies and therefore kill a large amount of mobs, like 1000 as you mentioned. This does produce results pretty close to the average for most new players.

How exactly did Loot 2.0 drastically lowered cost of healing?

Charlie|MindArk: Most of the decay from healing and using armor is now compensated for in the loot of the mob. On top of this the actual amount of decay to the armor per damage absorbed was reduced greatly. Overall the cost for healing and armor usage is less than 5% of what it used to be.

It is great that you adjust to lower the fees, even if temporary.

Some questions:

1. Is the temporary test over or still ongoing?

2. Is "returns on average" including costs (repairs)? does it include MU? if so, your MU figures cannot be correct as the auction data is off, there are many items which show MU because of historical sales but really cannot be sold / MU is way lower.

3. Smilgs has enjoyed a tt return of 92.66% since 11th of September and 91.82% before that, the only higher return was when not using the crit buffs for a week - strange coincidence? Losing 15000 peds per month with 39000 peds just before is just as frustrating of an experience...

Charlie|MindArk: Yes it is still ongoing and we hope to be able to keep it this way.

As mentioned earlier it includes all decay of weapons, ammo, armor etc associated with killing the creature. Repairing simply moves PED from one place to another much like buying/selling things from the TT, neither has an effect on loot or MindArk revenues.

The loot system never accounts for markup. Not on markup spent on things like enhancers or limited weapons, nor on markup gained from loot such as oils, items and ESI etc, markup values are just transactions between players. It is always TT in vs TT out. These statistics also do not include any loot that was paid as tax on land areas, so the returns are actually slightly higher than stated here.

If those tests of using/not using crit buffs were done during the last two weeks it would have coincided with the increase in overall loot returns and any result would have been skewed by that.

As for your personal returns I will not answer that here but you already have those answers in a support case and will have to post it yourself if you want it shared.


deflect means it blocked 100% of the damage, that has nothing at all to do with armor decaying less...

Charlie|MindArk: Correct.

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