Friday, September 29, 2017

DPP and Efficiency are not the same thing

AxeMurderer: I don't believe in personal loot pool, but isn't this proof that personal loot pool exists

Charlie|MindArk: No, there still is no personal loot pool.
Actually, this doesn't read like "most efficient hunters = highest returns" at all.

I know plenty of people with low dpp setups turning over high ped, whom would fall into this >50k bracket. If (as you assume) this would be pure high efficiency, they would artificially skew the return % lower.

What the statement actually reads (to me) is that, MA are identifying what cycle amounts are appropriate in identifying loot. I.e. >50k turnover, they expect >98, >10k >97, and all >96.

They've been pretty clear that dpp (or eff, whatever you wanna go with) only affects loot composition (by 7% min/max) and now they've highlighted that crit bonuses only boost this composition factor.

Charlie|MindArk: No, DPP and Efficiency are not the same thing. DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP. Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.

First off, thanks for the update!

Just a slight point about that list; there are presumably a huge number of players who don't fit any category there, namely those with a daily turnover of less than 600 peds or so a day since the test began, but have been around a lot longer than just this year!

I wonder what those returns are ???

It's also nice to see discussion on critical hits, for example, being commented on by MA to clear up some misunderstandings . Please continue to show you have been reading our discussions MA, ty!!!

Thank you so much for the update PLEASE keep them regular - we have a community manager after all.... right?

I at first was liking the changes, but quickly my loot fell off like usual. The hope was in less armor/fap decay.

Problems remain with loot items having zero mu and huge swings of volitity exist.

And as posted above, what about the large group of people that go through say 300-1000 peds? or even 5k peds? Your figures start off at 10k, that's pretty high. I still have never maintained 97% or 90% for that matter for more than a couple of days. What's my return after a week to 1 month? 0-10%. Deposit 100 bucks, have 1-10 dollars at end of month. I would LOVE to see myself have 80 even, but I don't so I still keep my distance from this game.

I remain hopeful for the future and involved from a distance.

Charlie|MindArk: The amount of turnover isn't very relevant to the average return or volatility in return for any individual player. To reach a stable average return it's really the amount of loot instances or creatures killed that matters. As an example, if a player kills 2 Sand Kings spending about 5000 PED to do so the expected loot returned on those 2 kills can vary greatly. If instead killing 200,000 Punies also about 5000 PED the expected loot return is going to be very close to the expected average of 96%+ seen in the 2017 group. A more realistic example of this is perhaps spending 300 PED hunting Proterons vs spending 300 PED hunting small Argonauts where the Argonaut hunt will usually yield similar results and the Proteron hunt results can be all over the place since the loot events are so few.

The reason turnover is chosen as the metric to present these statistics is because number of kills doesn't really say much about which level of players are in which category since anyone can kill a large number of mobs if they are small enough.


still no definition of what the hell turnover means... Is that the amount of ped they deposited, the number of ped they spent in decay, the amount of ped spent in ammo, or the amount of tt value they turned in when they 'turned it over' to the tt?

Charlie|MindArk: Turnover or PED "Cycled" is all PED decayed/destroyed/spent on killing a creature, this means decay for weapons, armor, ammo, healing, attachments etc. It has nothing to do with deposits, trade terminals or repair terminals etc.

Ive done more than 10k turnover but nowhere near those numbers =) how do we know that they are for real ?

Charlie|MindArk: These numbers are averages, most players in each category are going to be either above or below said number.

New players do probably not cycle 10000-50000 ped in 2,5 weeks so their volatility is probably even more obvious than for the mid level small time/softcore players (who most likelly have a larger turnover). So is this 96,94% for new players the average for ONE particular newby or is it an average of the entire newby player base?

They just say

Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.

But this doesnt mean every newby who shot 1000 punies got 96,94% in return.

Charlie|MindArk: As mentioned in a previous answer, the most important part for stable returns is the amount of kills or loot events not the amount of turnover. Most new players have very low turnover but hunt mobs like punies and therefore kill a large amount of mobs, like 1000 as you mentioned. This does produce results pretty close to the average for most new players.

How exactly did Loot 2.0 drastically lowered cost of healing?

Charlie|MindArk: Most of the decay from healing and using armor is now compensated for in the loot of the mob. On top of this the actual amount of decay to the armor per damage absorbed was reduced greatly. Overall the cost for healing and armor usage is less than 5% of what it used to be.

It is great that you adjust to lower the fees, even if temporary.

Some questions:

1. Is the temporary test over or still ongoing?

2. Is "returns on average" including costs (repairs)? does it include MU? if so, your MU figures cannot be correct as the auction data is off, there are many items which show MU because of historical sales but really cannot be sold / MU is way lower.

3. Smilgs has enjoyed a tt return of 92.66% since 11th of September and 91.82% before that, the only higher return was when not using the crit buffs for a week - strange coincidence? Losing 15000 peds per month with 39000 peds just before is just as frustrating of an experience...

Charlie|MindArk: Yes it is still ongoing and we hope to be able to keep it this way.

As mentioned earlier it includes all decay of weapons, ammo, armor etc associated with killing the creature. Repairing simply moves PED from one place to another much like buying/selling things from the TT, neither has an effect on loot or MindArk revenues.

The loot system never accounts for markup. Not on markup spent on things like enhancers or limited weapons, nor on markup gained from loot such as oils, items and ESI etc, markup values are just transactions between players. It is always TT in vs TT out. These statistics also do not include any loot that was paid as tax on land areas, so the returns are actually slightly higher than stated here.

If those tests of using/not using crit buffs were done during the last two weeks it would have coincided with the increase in overall loot returns and any result would have been skewed by that.

As for your personal returns I will not answer that here but you already have those answers in a support case and will have to post it yourself if you want it shared.


deflect means it blocked 100% of the damage, that has nothing at all to do with armor decaying less...

Charlie|MindArk: Correct.

Wednesday, September 27, 2017

Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update

Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update
One of MindArk’s primary long-term goals is to make Entropia Universe as affordable and entertaining as possible for all participants. Toward that end, MindArk is continually experimenting with various adjustments to in-game systems, with an eye toward lowering cost to play while maintaining a reasonable level of revenue that enables continued development and marketing of Entropia Universe.

Reductions in Cost to Play

On September 11th, we initiated a temporary test in which the MindArk fee for hunting was lowered significantly. In the long term, we hope that a lower MindArk fee will result in increased overall activity and new participant retention, and thereby compensate for the lower short-term revenue. We plan to continue experimenting with these revenue settings in the near future to gather more data.

Early data show positive results from those experiments:

Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.

Hunters with turnover between 10000 and 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 97.05% on average.

Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.

As noted in a previous Developer Notes, Loot 2.0 drastically lowered the costs for armor decay and healing, which we can now confirm has led to a substantial increase in the usage of those mechanics. This is an example of the type of positive changes we are hoping to identify and implement in other systems: changes that benefit participants (in terms of lower cost to play) as well as MindArk’s revenue, resulting in a better overall gameplay experience and growth of Entropia Universe.

Loot Distribution Changes

As many participants have already noticed, changes have recently been made to hunting loot distribution, specifically regarding loot volatility and loot sizes. The overall net hunting return was not affected by these changes, but rather the frequency and size of various loot outcomes as a means of promoting more interesting and exciting loot outcomes and removing some of the more frustrating outcomes that were previously possible (especially on larger creatures).

Effects of Critical Hits/Damage on Loot

Finally, we have noticed several misconceptions in recent community discussions regarding Critical Hits that we would like to clarify. Critical Hits do not have a direct impact on loot value calculations per se. Since loot is now based on the actual cost to kill a creature in Loot 2.0, dealing more damage via critical hits (or by having higher damage per pec) does result in smaller loot events for a given creature, but this effect is directly proportional to the lower cost to kill and allows more creatures to be killed (i.e. more loot events) for a given amount of PED spent. Also, the composition of loot improves in such cases and results in a lower proportion of Shrapnel in loot. In other words, the use of items or consumables that provide increased Critical Hit Chance or Critical Damage can never have a negative effect on loot returns.

Developer Notes 13 - Loot-2.0 Statistics

Developer Notes #13 - Loot 2.0 Statistics

The MindArk design team has been closely monitoring the impact of Loot 2.0, recently implemented in Version Update 15.15. We have also been following the many interesting and valuable discussions on community forums and thought it would be helpful to those discussions to share some hunting return statistics.

Net return for all hunting activity since VU 15.15: 94.71%

Net return for hunters cycling at least 100,000 PED since VU 15.15: 97.29%

Net return for hunters cycling at least 10,000 PED since VU 15.15: 94.79%

Net return for accounts created in 2017, cycling at least 100 PED since VU 15.15: 94.87%

Net return for accounts created in 2017: 93.47%

These return rates are very close to MindArk’s targets for Loot 2.0, and indicate that the changes implemented are working as intended. Of course, we will continue to monitor, tweak and improve moving forward.

Happy hunting!

Developer-Notes #12 - Loot-2.0 Follow-Up

Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up

This installment of Developer Notes attempts to clear up some of the questions and misconceptions related to the Version Update 15.15.0 - Loot 2.0.

Economy Parameter (soon to be renamed Efficiency)One of the most misunderstood features of Loot 2.0 was the introduction of the Economy parameter and its effect on loot calculations. Based on feedback received via support cases and our monitoring of forum discussions, it appears that one cause of confusion is the use of the term ‘Economy’ for this parameter. As such, the Economy parameter will be renamed to Efficiency in the upcoming patch, which more accurately captures the effect of this parameter. Also in the upcoming patch, the tooltip text for the Efficiency parameter will be changed to the following:


Efficiency indicates the cost-effectiveness of a weapon (or weapon attachment) in creating damage. Efficiency values range from 1-100, and higher values indicate better efficiency. Efficiency is an inherent property of an item, and thus is not affected by avatar skills. Weapons that have scopes, lasers or amplifiers attached will display a modified Efficiency value (in orange).
A few additional points about Efficiency parameter will hopefully clear up many of the questions and dispel some of the more common misconceptions that we have noticed:

The Efficiency parameter is not affected by avatar skills.
The largest components by far in loot value calculations are costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.
The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value).
The displayed Efficiency parameter for a given weapon does not correspond to expected overall loot return.

Optimal Loot
Another feature of Loot 2.0 that has sparked lots of discussion and speculation is Optimal Loot.

It is important to note that Optimal Loot only affects loot composition (what you loot), not the loot value (how much you loot). There is no Optimal Loot penalty for hunting creatures that are well below your avatar’s level; in fact most such kills will meet the requirements for Optimal Loot composition.

To best achieve Optimal Loot:

Be sure to have the Hit Ability and Damage profession requirements maxed (10.0/10.0) on the weapon your avatar is using.
Avoid over-amping (using a weapon amplifier that adds more than 50% of the maximum damage of the weapon to which it is equipped).
Minimize healing costs and the need to interrupt damage dealing to heal.
In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.

Crafting, Resources and Economy

MindArk is working on restructuring and streamlining the item situation in Entropia Universe. This involves many changes to the crafting system and loot distribution, with the goal of reducing the number of components, resources and similar items in the universe, to ensure that the majority of items have a place within the economy.

The balance between looted and crafted items, along with items from other sources such as events, competitions, strongboxes, etc., will be improved to strike a better balance.

New blueprints will use existing components and resources as much as possible to sustain a thriving and interdependent economy between crafting, mining and hunting.

Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0

Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0

Later this month, MindArk will be releasing a special Loot 2.0 Version Update that will overhaul the way in which hunting loot is calculated and distributed. Many of the features and systems added over the past few years have gradually led to this update, which will significantly improve overall loot returns for the vast majority (upwards of 98%) of participants.

The information in this Developer Notes article is intended to inform participants of the upcoming changes and to gather initial impressions and feedback to help ensure a smooth implementation of this exciting update. Please bear in mind that the changes described below are still being finalized and tested, so some specific details may be changed upon release, while other changes may require additional refinement or testing and therefore may not appear in the initial Loot 2.0 release, but instead in subsequent patches or Version Updates.

Loot Changes

Loot calculations will be optimized and improved to better factor in the various costs associated with hunting activity, including: healing, ammo consumption, buffs, tool and armor deterioration, attachments, and more.

A special hunting bonus pool will be implemented that will distribute funds from various sources, including skill misses, PVP, marketing and special events, which will improve overall loot returns for all participants.

A new Economy rating parameter will be introduced, on a scale of 1-100, that indicates the efficiency of a tool and which influences loot calculations. This change from the once dominant damage/pec model will provide the design team with more freedom to release exciting and interesting items with a wider range of damage output and special effects. For example, our team will have the ability to create powerful new items that provide access to challenging and exciting content without dramatically increasing cost to play. Existing items will be assigned Economy values that reflect their relative efficiency to one another and to the entire array of items in the universe.

Avatar skills will play a role in loot calculations and this role will be expanded in future Version Updates. Imagine new professions that offer hunting specialization opportunities and a way to incrementally increase net loot returns for dedicated and active hunters.

MindArk has been monitoring the community discussions concerning so-called 'loot waves' and will implement changes in the Loot 2.0 and subsequent Version Updates that will address this issue by improving the distribution of resources and items, with the goal of ensuring that loot opportunities are more interesting, dynamic and fair for all participants

Ammunition will be removed from hunting loot. This change has been requested by many participants over the years and will assist participants in more accurately tracking their results.

Loot value calculations and the composition of the items in loot will be affected by properly matching avatar skills and gear to the creature being hunted, rewarding efficient kills with more interesting loot. For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors. This system is intended to reward game knowledge, which has traditionally been an important and unique aspect of success in Entropia Universe, and to provide opportunities for participants to improve their loot returns via experimentation, optimization and specialization.

Also in the Loot 2.0 Version Update will be a range of improvements to various other systems with an eye toward lowering costs and increasing enjoyment for all Entropians. An example of such are the following planned changes to armor:

Armor Changes

Armor now decays significantly less per point of damage absorbed.

Armor no longer has a minimum decay based on total protection, it will now always decay proportionally to the amount of damage absorbed.

Armor can now absorb all incoming damage down to a minimum of 0.1 point of damage taken, instead of the previous 1.0 points of damage.

Armor and armor platings now decay independently based on the amount of damage they each actually absorb, rather than both decaying as if absorbing the full amount of received damage.

Armor decay is now linear per point of damage absorbed, rather than increasing in cost per damage absorbed.

A profession level requirement will be introduced for non-(L) armors. Meeting the required level results in the armor offering full protection at all condition values. If the profession requirement is not met, armor works as before, with protection decreasing relative to condition.

Our design and development teams have been working very hard on these important changes for many months now, and MindArk looks forward to incorporating valuable feedback from our wonderful and passionate community leading up to the release of Loot 2.0!